Talking Creative PE, with John Quay and Abbey Boyer

In this podcast, A/Prof Sue Whatman talks with Professor John Quay and Abbey Boyer from the University of Melbourne about a holistic pedagogical framework called Creative PE. This framework draws on aspects of various pedagogical models in PE, including foundational movement skills, teaching games for understanding, sport education, and taking personal and social responsibility, to offer a way to plan and teach units that supports meaningful engagement with PE.

Professor John Quay has taught and researched at the University of Melbourne for twenty years, in HPE, outdoor education and educational philosophy. John initially developed Creative PE with Jacqui Peters, who is now a Lecturer at Deakin University. With colleagues he has taught many cohorts of pre-service teachers using this understanding of HPE.

https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/6019-john-quay

Abbey Boyer is a Lecturer in the Faculty of Education at the University of Melbourne. Prior to this Abbey spent over 20 years teaching HPE in primary and secondary school settings. She has run Creative PE in primary, secondary and tertiary settings with great success and teaches this and other aspects of HPE in the Master of Teaching.

https://education.unimelb.edu.au/about/academic-staff/abbey-boyer

Transcript

00:00:08 Speaker 1 

You're listening to the Astra podcast with Sue Watman, and today we are speaking with Professor John Cray and Abby Boyer from the Faculty of Education at the University of Melbourne. And they're here to tell us today about their work in Creative P/E. 

00:00:23 Speaker 1 

Welcome, John. 

00:00:25 Speaker 1 

Hi and welcome, Abby. 

00:00:27 Speaker 2 

Hi, sue. How are you? 

00:00:29 Speaker 1 

Wonderful. I'm so pleased you can join us today on the. 

00:00:33 Speaker 1 

So we're here to talk, to talk about creative P/E and perhaps a nice starting place is to talk about where the ideas behind it came from. 

00:00:41 Speaker 3 

Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks so much though. And again, thanks very much for having us. 

00:00:46 Speaker 3 

Yeah, well, they created P/E. The ideas started in the early 2000s, and I was working with Jackie Peters, who is now Deacon University. But Jackie and I are working at Melbourne. 

00:00:57 Speaker 3 

And we were working in primary teacher education and we were trying to work through the issue of, you know, a limited amount of time with with students. 

00:01:12 Speaker 3 

And the amount of content we needed to get through in physical education with a range of models. You know, sitting on the library shelf, you know kits and things. And so the I am. 

00:01:27 Speaker 3 

Idea came through of what? 

00:01:28 Speaker 3 

Do these models actually support each other? And we've seen other people do that with, you know, sport education and taking personal social responsibility with Allison's work. 

00:01:42 Speaker 3 

And we so we looked at combining sport education, tpsr health. 

00:01:52 Speaker 3 

Also. 

00:01:54 Speaker 3 

Tgfu game sense, fundamental motor skills and also game creation. 

00:02:01 Speaker 3 

So we thought, Oh well, these are all the things we'd like to teach. And how do we sort of present them in a coordinated, coherent way? And I've got a bit of background in outdoor Ed. So we're also thinking about. 

00:02:16 Speaker 3 

How if we planned a unit of P/E? 

00:02:20 Speaker 3 

For children, for young people at school, could we do it with the thought that it might be a bit of a journey, like a, you know, middle school after Ed Bushwalk or? 

00:02:31 Speaker 3 

Something like that, where the people know they've sort of going, they're starting somewhere and they're heading somewhere. 

00:02:38 Speaker 3 

So those those sort of thoughts came together and we ended up with creative P/E, so. 

00:02:47 Speaker 3 

And one of the main factors of it is rather than starting with fundamental skills, which is often the way, especially in primary, we started at the other end with the tpsr, with the health and work. 

00:03:03 Speaker 3 

They're taking personal social responsibility, especially as that related to being in a team. 

00:03:08 Speaker 3 

So a bit of a flip, but yeah, that's that's where the ideas sort of came from. 

00:03:13 Speaker 1 

That is fantastic. And how did you first come across creative P/E, Abby? 

00:03:20 Speaker 2 

I was introduced to Creative P/E when I started working with John at Melbourne in 2018 and we started. I was working with primary schools at the time and then I saw the value in. 

00:03:35 Speaker 2 

How it could link in across 3 kilowatt as well? And so I was teaching at a secondary school teaching physical education and so I introduced it to my staff and student. 

00:03:46 Speaker 2 

And primarily taught it in your rate 9. 

00:03:50 Speaker 2 

Especially during the lockdown time as well, so I adapted. 

00:03:56 Speaker 2 

The model to suit online learning as well. 

00:04:00 Speaker 1 

OK, so I know that some of the key features of creative P/E are concepts like backward design, enquiry based learning, structural criteria. Could you tell us a little? 

00:04:11 Speaker 1 

More about that. 

00:04:13 Speaker 3 

So do you want? I'll jump in. Abby. Yep. Yeah. Tar. 

00:04:18 Speaker 3 

Yeah. Thanks, sue. So yeah, has linked to what I was saying before about the, you know, the notion of a journey. 

00:04:26 Speaker 3 

We're sort of trying to think, well, you know, backward design where where are we headed with the unit, but rather than? 

00:04:34 Speaker 3 

Nearly positioning the content descriptions or the curriculum or the knowledge and skills at the end of the unit as you would as a teacher, we were trying to think, well, what would the the end goal of the unit be from the students perspective? 

00:04:50 Speaker 3 

So how could we set something up that they were really working towards achieving? So that was the backward design notion and in getting there and there are a range of steps in getting there. If you do the whole thing. 

00:05:04 Speaker 3 

Just as an aside, we're very. 

00:05:08 Speaker 3 

You know, look forward, the idea that there's no sense of fidelity we're not with. If you want to have a crack at this. 

00:05:18 Speaker 3 

There's no right or wrong. Just play with any of it, but there are many enquiries on the way so so the first inquiry in a sense and it's an ongoing 1 is what does it mean to be a good team member. 

00:05:31 Speaker 3 

Then how do we develop a game? You know what sort of game are we going to play? 

00:05:39 Speaker 3 

And the skills are enveloped in that as well as strategies. And that game then is inserted into a little season of games and there's some practise as well as you know, collaborative play. 

00:05:55 Speaker 3 

Through the season. So, so with all of that though, and with all those steps. 

00:06:01 Speaker 3 

And it can't becomes clear with the game. Rather than starting with wolves. And rather than starting with a game that is an adult game or a game that the teachers familiar with. 

00:06:15 Speaker 3 

It's we ask the students to develop the game. 

00:06:21 Speaker 3 

And in order to do that, we present them with a a list of criteria. 

00:06:26 Speaker 3 

Or variables, but we've started using the word criteria because some of these criteria will be in a rubric that you will assess. So the criteria you know, the basic ones that you know, we're sort of talking about, you know, the game you create has to be fun. 

00:06:44 Speaker 3 

It has to include everyone in the class. Everyone needs to be able to play the game, you know, and that is the the full range of diversity of the class. So not just thinking of, you know, the good players potential but. 

00:06:57 Speaker 3 

You know, if someone's in a wheelchair, they need to be able to play this game. 

00:07:02 Speaker 3 

There's. I'll keep going. So whatever skills you want to teach and to to make sure you have covered, they need to be in the game. 

00:07:11 Speaker 3 

There's yeah equipment and we provide each team with the same equipment so they they can then create games and teach them to other teams and know the other teams got further equipment that they can use together to try out the game that they're working on. 

00:07:30 Speaker 3 

And Abby, can you think of, you know, what are some of the other criteria? So I'm putting on spot 8 something. 

00:07:35 Speaker 2 

It is the scoring and the safety. 

00:07:38 Speaker 3 

Oh, yeah. So that's really important. All safety, of course. So, you know, the the students need to be aware of that and scoring that raises the the question about CPAP and sport education that in this way of teaching, we're not assigning roles. 

00:07:57 Speaker 3 

To students, we want them all to be able to. 

00:08:01 Speaker 3 

Displaying the scoring help coach others and all that, and in a lot of ways we're modelling it on what they're capable of organising and doing at recess and lunch and after school, you know where we see them organising a lot of their own things. So Abby. 

00:08:19 Speaker 2 

I think when you talk about the the analogy with cpet that was. 

00:08:24 Speaker 2 

A great way for my teachers to understand the concept of what we were doing in terms of creating a competition, but not necessarily based on a particular sport and the tpsr, the teaching, personal and social responsibility is the real point of difference for me in creative P/E. 

00:08:43 Speaker 2 

So we begin with understanding what it means to be a great team mate and with helicon's levels. What stood out to me was that lots of my high performing students are at Level 3. 

00:08:56 Speaker 2 

Three, they're really good at executing the game. They follow the rules. They're always very enthusiastic. And the distinction between Level 3 and level 4 is that at level 4 you are helping everyone else become a great team member. 

00:09:15 Speaker 2 

And improving the performance of the whole team and of course my students all want to be operating at level 4. And so I saw a shift in the way that they participated within their team. 

00:09:27 Speaker 2 

When they had that. 

00:09:29 Speaker 2 

To initially illustrate how those team levels work, what we do is we have them in their teams and they create a little role play. It doesn't have to be about sport, it could be about lining up at the canteen. 

00:09:43 Speaker 2 

The other teams have to guess OK within that role play which person was the level zero who was disruptive. Normally the easiest one to pick out, by the way, which person was the level one who was kind of there. 

00:09:58 Speaker 2 

Not disruptive, but not particularly. 

00:10:01 Speaker 2 

Having any input into the situation or the game, and once they've got an understanding of the. 

00:10:08 Speaker 2 

Teammate levels. We use them consistently in every lesson for the students to self identify where they are. 

00:10:19 Speaker 2 

And what happened in a couple of my classes? My year, eight classes was that the teachers of English and science were like, what do you what are you doing with this class? Because they keep talking about these games and then they adopted. 

00:10:34 Speaker 2 

The language that we were using within that. 

00:10:37 Speaker 2 

And also it's quite dynamic. 

00:10:40 Speaker 2 

In secondary in secondary P/E or secondary classes in particular, I don't always assume that students are going to turn up with a book or a pen or any of those kinds of materials, and so I gave each student. 

00:10:55 Speaker 2 

A peg and they put their name on the peg and then when we were outside, there's usually fences and we would allocate a part of the fence that that part is level 4, Level 3, level 2, and they would go and put their own peg. 

00:11:10 Speaker 2 

Just on where they thought they were operating. 

00:11:13 Speaker 2 

And then routinely during the lesson, we would stop, say, 20 minutes in, say, just have a think about what level you've been operating on. 

00:11:21 Speaker 2 

At the moment and then they would go and move their peg to where they thought they were, and that also helps them to reflect on how when people's pegs when they were rating themselves at Level 3 or 4. 

00:11:38 Speaker 2 

How that impacted their performance and productivity as a team. So I always kept linking back to that social, emotional sort of reflection and learning that was really beneficial to the team. 

00:11:51 Speaker 3 

And if I can jump in. Abby, thanks so much for that. 

00:11:56 Speaker 3 

Umm, you know and so. 

00:11:58 Speaker 3 

One of the questions might be you know why are we using this? 

00:12:05 Speaker 3 

Tpsr under levels in this way of teaching and. 

00:12:11 

Or. 

00:12:11 Speaker 3 

22 big points here. 1 is that we want to shift the the the motivation, the disciplinary understanding away from the teacher having to sort of enforce what it meant to be a good team. 

00:12:27 Speaker 3 

Member team mate. So you're not being good. You you know you're in trouble sort of thing. 

00:12:33 Speaker 3 

Too well, the understanding that if. 

00:12:36 Speaker 3 

Most of the people in your team are operating at Level 3 and 4. Then no matter what else is happening, you've got a good team because people are looking after each other and wanting to contribute so. 

00:12:51 Speaker 3 

The motivation then, and the explanation to the students about the team levels is about being a good team member. You need to sort of move up those levels. 

00:13:00 Speaker 3 

Levels another thing associated with it is that later on, when we have the students 'cause, we usually work with four teams. You know, divide a class into four teams. So we want two teams working with each other. 

00:13:16 Speaker 3 

At the same time, and you know, potentially playing games, you know with each other. 

00:13:22 Speaker 3 

And often in P/E it's the teacher who's the umpire referee. So we need those games to be able to be played without the teacher being the referee or the umpire. 

00:13:33 Speaker 3 

So the and so that framework that Tpsr framework where the if you like the criterion is you know understands what it means to be a good team member and the quality descriptors are those levels. 

00:13:48 Speaker 3 

Then then that's in play as well to help manage. 

00:13:54 Speaker 3 

Their their you know behaviour and their contributions when we get to a time when you know they're playing games, you know with each other. 

00:14:04 Speaker 3 

Isn't, you know, just umpiring the whole thing, but it's more like a, you know, quality classroom teaching where the students will be working in table groups or something, especially that model in primary schools. And the teacher isn't. 

00:14:21 Speaker 3 

Directing everything that's going on, but once things are, activities are under way. They can monitor and they can visit tables and they can support and provide feedback, et cetera. 

00:14:32 Speaker 3 

Yeah. And one last thing. 

00:14:34 Speaker 3 

About the criteria. 

00:14:37 Speaker 3 

Is that now that you know the criteria for the team, the criteria for the games, the the students now have the what the expectations for what we want as teachers? 

00:14:51 Speaker 3 

To see them able to do and so. 

00:14:56 Speaker 3 

They can provide feedback to each other. 

00:14:59 Speaker 3 

Another so as we get the games working and the teams develop sort of draught games, then they we can stop and so will we stop as long as sorry, let me take a step back. You know, once they've developed something that might work, they then they'll teach it to another team. 

00:15:18 Speaker 3 

The other team will teach them their version and they can sit down as a team and provide feedback. 

00:15:25 Speaker 3 

To the other team. So we also use booklets or other methods so you can actually think about the criteria that we're using for games and as a team, you can agree on what feedback you want to provide to the other team. 

00:15:42 Speaker 3 

And so they can have that feedback and further develop their game and you can receive. 

00:15:48 Speaker 3 

The feedback from them and that sort of round Robin structure of developing a game, sharing it with another team, getting feedback, giving feedback, we'll we'll do it for you know, a number of classes. 

00:16:00 Speaker 1 

Yeah. So it sounds to me like that really you've you're enabling students to really sit nicely in that social aspect of physical education and. 

00:16:13 Speaker 1 

Yeah. Divorce it from, as you said, teacher direction teachers defining all the roles, teachers defining all of the limits of what we're learning today. And so it's all about student centred. It's a little bit about the idea of peers teaching each other. 

00:16:28 Speaker 1 

Really love the idea of that students not only get to know what the criteria is for a team or or quality P/E, but that they get to self assess themselves against it. And I think I see a lot of those concepts coming out in in papers around. 

00:16:44 Speaker 1 

And our meaningful P/E, you see a lot of that as. 

00:16:47 Speaker 1 

I. 

00:16:47 Speaker 1 

To come back to you, Abby, in a minute about an example from your COVID teaching. But before I do, I want to go back to you, John, around what happened when you took this to Finland? So I read your article. 

00:17:01 Speaker 1 

With coconut and coconut about introducing this. 

00:17:05 Speaker 1 

Model and particularly the team and the season in a finish middle school. Was it a middle school? 

00:17:13 Speaker 3 

Primary and. 

00:17:14 Speaker 1 

Army primary and middle and at the end of the article sort of said, oh, you know, Finland has given Australia many things, but this is something Australia has given Finland. So perhaps if you want to talk me through a little bit like what like what you noticed was different about? 

00:17:16 Speaker 3 

Yes. 

00:17:29 Speaker 1 

Those schools and how creative P/E measure need for them. 

00:17:34 Speaker 3 

Yeah. Well, you. 

00:17:35 Speaker 3 

Know Middle School Pennsylvania in Finland is quite similar to Australian middle School Pennsylvania, where you've got multiple. 

00:17:42 Speaker 3 

And P/E is closely associated with sport and so teachers will run units on particular sports. And so the teacher is often the, you know, the main font of knowledge and you know directs and drives the teaching. 

00:18:00 Speaker 3 

In that regard, and I remember watching, yeah, they have some different sports over there than we might. So I think there's finished baseball and, you know, things that, you know, we wouldn't normally. 

00:18:12 Speaker 3 

Sort of work with and So what? 

00:18:16 Speaker 3 

What? You know, the people I was working with were in a city called Uvascular, which is in the middle of Finland and the university there is the only place where you can learn how to be a physical education teacher. 

00:18:29 Speaker 3 

And so it was of interest to them. 

00:18:34 Speaker 3 

Because it shifted the way they were thinking about physical education. 

00:18:39 Speaker 3 

Into forms of pedagogy that more aligned with the the forms of pedagogy that you know were used in other parts of the school and other subjects. So like I was saying before, one of the things that was driving us initially with developing this was. 

00:19:00 Speaker 3 

Being aware of high quality classroom teaching in the primary school and in the secondary school so that it's so it's not, it's not different than. 

00:19:11 Speaker 3 

High quality teaching. 

00:19:13 Speaker 3 

And so we're trying to bring that. 

00:19:16 Speaker 3 

Into the fizz Ed space where. 

00:19:21 Speaker 3 

You know, often, you know the question are we coaching or are we teaching some of those things that, you know, have played this for a long time? 

00:19:31 Speaker 3 

You know are there and yeah. So I've continued to work with, you know, uh coconut and others over there and yeah, so. 

00:19:44 Speaker 3 

It's been a really good, you know, partnership and learning from them, them learning from us and. 

00:19:52 Speaker 3 

Yeah. Yeah. Also thinking about their curriculum and how they run that. But that's a whole nother story. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, sue. 

00:19:59 Speaker 1 

Yeah. Well, situating the social in, I mean that's something we are always grappling with and particularly. 

00:20:06 Speaker 1 

With online teaching and learning, and so that's why I thought I'd come back to you, Abby, about you example. When you're thinking that you wanted to apply the creative P/E model, particularly during lockdown. So what did that look like? 

00:20:20 Speaker 2 

It it was in Google Classroom that I constructed this. I really wanted a chance for my students to feel like they were focusing on the practical element of physical education, which was hard to do while we're in lockdown and I had five. 

00:20:35 Speaker 2 

Year 8 and 9 P classes during lockdown, and so I had each team so that, like John said, there's four teams in a class. Each team construct a bitmoji classroom, which is basically a digital. 

00:20:51 Speaker 2 

And so in their classroom, they had to draw out the playing field or the court. They had to create a bitmoji. I don't know if you saw your 8 to nines during lockdown, but they never turned their screens on. So. 

00:21:06 Speaker 2 

Building an identity without being able to see each other was a challenge that I wanted to kind of address with this opportunity. 

00:21:14 Speaker 2 

And then they had all of the criteria and they had to address that during lessons. And the great thing about the digital world is that everything is timestamped and you can see whose name is it attributed to certain things. And so it was very visible for the team who was contributing and talking about. 

00:21:32 Speaker 2 

Creating the rules, creating the game, they might like, John said. You choose specific skills, so say it might be a shoulder pass that you want to do. And so in there. 

00:21:44 Speaker 2 

The classroom there might be a link from a basketball that went to an instructional video that they did exhibiting the skill, and then they might have. Sorry, there's one of our P/E teachers calling me. 

00:22:01 Speaker 2 

So all of the criteria that we're talking about that you check your game against, I had them build that first. 

00:22:09 Speaker 2 

It's because what I really wanted to do was as soon as we got back from lockdown, I wanted to jump straight into prac because as a phys Ed teacher in a secondary school, you might only see them once or twice a week. So you want them to be as active as possible. 

00:22:24 Speaker 2 

And so they created these rooms and they gave each other feedback. And they wrote comments on is everyone allowed to shoot in this or one of the criteria, for example, is when we talk about. 

00:22:39 Speaker 2 

Scoring and timing. 

00:22:40 Speaker 2 

It should be 5 minute half. 

00:22:43 Speaker 2 

That is something that comes up in the feedback when they play it with each other. What I've often found is the groups create. They look at all the equipment and think I'm going to create like this obstacle course and everyone can get over and through the equipment and you have to and then the game and then what they don't realise until they play it with another team. 

00:23:02 Speaker 2 

Is that the game? 

00:23:03 Speaker 2 

Over. 

00:23:04 Speaker 2 

And so they haven't reached the criteria of the five minute halves. 

00:23:09 Speaker 2 

Because what we want is for it to expand into a whole class game. So from the online bitmoji rooms they had their rules. They had the equipment they would need, they had the skills that they would be focusing on, and this was. 

00:23:25 Speaker 2 

I wanted to enhance their ICT capacity as well. They created a script that exhibited the teammate level. 

00:23:35 Speaker 2 

And then they were able because they became really familiar with this and we did it over a number of weeks. By the time we got back on campus, they were able to go straight out and practise their games and talk about the rules that they had. 

00:23:51 Speaker 2 

And then go straight into after that, practising, which is the first draught. They then match up with one of the other groups. 

00:24:00 Speaker 2 

So team one and Team 2 get together and they compete one of the games against each other and that's how they get the feedback because the other team uses the criteria, it might be through the booklet. It might be because I've laminated the criteria for them. 

00:24:17 Speaker 2 

And after they've played the game, they look at it and say, well, it was great, but was everyone able to participate? 

00:24:23 Speaker 2 

Was because that's one of our criteria. We want everyone to participate, so how could we adjust the rules or the formation or the environment so that we can get everyone to anticipate participate because we said that we don't want any outside. 

00:24:38 Speaker 2 

Because when you have outs you have people not participating, so they're not improving. 

00:24:44 Speaker 2 

So I found that it was a really cohesive way for my classes to feel bonded in that transition from online learning to on campus learning. And like I said then, some of the other core teachers in their classes started to adopt some of the language and the interest in the games and the competition. 

00:25:05 Speaker 2 

And like any teacher who's run a really great CPAP unit knows when it runs really well. You as the teacher, are just stepping back and watching them organise them, organise themselves and run themselves. 

00:25:16 Speaker 2 

Make improvements and you're facilitating that. So it was really lovely experience. 

00:25:23 Speaker 1 

Oh, that's wonderful. We have a very short CPAP unit in what used to be like. 

00:25:31 Speaker 1 

What you call the the last subject before they went, they went out and graduated and now it's a little bit further back in the degree it's. 

00:25:37 Speaker 1 

3rd year but when? 

00:25:39 Speaker 1 

We had a day where they had to design the games and how long the halves were. They started off. 

00:25:46 Speaker 1 

10 minutes halves in the game and then sort of halfway during the day. 

00:25:50 Speaker 1 

Going can we cut that back to five? 

00:25:53 Speaker 1 

They have a tasted I would completely wrecked, but they were certainly they were, you know, engaging in those sorts of things that you've described. But yeah, 5 minutes on paper, they might think that doesn't sound long enough to really have a decent play, but by the time you're actually. 

00:26:06 Speaker 1 

Through through a programme. It's it's more than enough time, isn't it? 

00:26:15 Speaker 1 

You're meat at the moment, son. 

00:26:17 

Right. 

00:26:18 Speaker 3 

Sorry about that. Yeah. Another thing with the five minute halves is that when it is, when that game is inserted into some form of season. So that's the sort of the final phase of. 

00:26:33 Speaker 3 

Of the unit. If you want to go all the way there. 

00:26:37 Speaker 3 

We wanted to make sure that there was enough time in a lesson that the students could analyse how their performance went. 

00:26:46 Speaker 3 

And workout ways to improve. 

00:26:48 Speaker 3 

Move. So just like any class, you wouldn't just, you know like a maths class. You wouldn't just have a test every week, so you couldn't just have a, you know, competitive game every week and not have time for them to think about. Well, what did you know, what could we do better? 

00:27:07 Speaker 3 

How could we improve various aspects and and aspects? 

00:27:11 Speaker 3 

Often you know, skills, strategies and fitness, and so teams thinking about that and then Co designing ways to improve and so the skills you know as you know I've been. I was saying, you know we want them incorporated in the games, right. 

00:27:34 

Read. 

00:27:36 

Uh. 

00:27:40 Speaker 3 

Uh. 

00:27:43 Speaker 3 

And nice. And we noded the techniques that people. 

00:27:48 Speaker 3 

Have identified for particular skills. They're not rocket science and, you know, children are quite capable in in class to think well, what? What do you need to do to do a good throw to do a good shoulder pass to do whatever and to to have a discussion about that. 

00:28:06 Speaker 3 

Make suggestions and then the skill then. 

00:28:09 Speaker 3 

Their relationship with the skill is so much closer. You know, it's a skill in their game that they're analysing suggesting techniques for which they can then use to analyse their and others performance in their team. 

00:28:26 Speaker 3 

So again, it's sort of taking the teacher off centre stage and and by doing so it's enabling a, you know, a much more increased amount of feedback to be able to be provided. 

00:28:41 Speaker 3 

In class on your skill performance Gare Abbey. 

00:28:47 Speaker 2 

When you talk about the feedback in class as well, John, I think it's important to note that when you created this, it wasn't just for the P/E specialist. So I'm a P/E specialist, but this there's a Jackie ran a study where there was. 

00:29:03 Speaker 2 

4 generalist grade. Four teachers running this that then became a competitive. 

00:29:08 Speaker 2 

And so it can be run by the generalist. But there's also great opportunity for the partnership between the P/E teacher and the generalist, because the P/E teacher of course has a limited amount of time outside. 

00:29:18 

Yeah. 

00:29:23 Speaker 2 

So developing that partnership, there's a lot of scope in this particular model. 

00:29:30 Speaker 1 

Yeah, there's quite a big expectation on classroom teachers to meet the personal development and a lot of the social. 

00:29:37 Speaker 1 

Health components of HBA curriculum and this would be a really wonderful way to scaffold that. 

00:29:45 Speaker 1 

Generalists who might think oh gosh, I'm not a P/E teacher. I can't do this, but just say oh, actually I can do that and certainly they can do it when you're handing over so much of the decision making and enactment to the students. 

00:30:00 Speaker 3 

Yeah. And that's what we found it 'cause we're. 

00:30:02 Speaker 3 

Aware. 

00:30:02 Speaker 3 

That I'm not sure if you find this zoo where you are, but you know each year you know with the primary initial teacher education cohort, there's a significant percentage. 

00:30:17 Speaker 3 

That haven't enjoyed physical education in their own education, and so for many of them. 

00:30:25 Speaker 3 

Knowing that in some schools physical education will be taught by the classroom teacher, you know, not every school has a specialist, and even if the classroom teacher isn't teaching it, the fact that they. 

00:30:40 Speaker 3 

Know how it might work and that it can work in the ways that they think they can teach. 

00:30:49 Speaker 3 

You know, is a is something that we wanted to leave them with at the end of the P they did in their initial teacher education. 

00:30:58 Speaker 3 

Greg, so they would finish their time with us feeling that you know, they didn't have to be a sporty person to actually teach P/E. They there was, there was their identity as a teacher. 

00:31:15 Speaker 3 

You know, as a classroom teacher, sort of embedded in this and that they could conduct it, you know as well, yes, so. 

00:31:24 Speaker 1 

Very good. Well, before we wrap up today, I just, I got I guess I'd like to ask you what's next for you is? 

00:31:30 Speaker 1 

The Creative P/E team. 

00:31:34 Speaker 3 

Should I go, Abbie? 

00:31:36 Speaker 2 

Yeah, I I think for me, just the point, John, that it's it's not just P/E, this model, this this idea of creating learning units in something that they engage in, that they create themselves. It's not something that had to come and do in my class they. 

00:31:51 Speaker 2 

Owned it and it's not just the P/E. So that yeah, that broader scope I guess. 

00:31:58 Speaker 3 

Yeah. Thanks. Abby. Yeah, so, yeah, 'cause that came to when? 

00:32:02 Speaker 3 

We also applied this with dance and. 

00:32:08 Speaker 3 

Haven't got time to go into all that, but but having games and dance is 2 possible versions made us realise that we had a framework here rather than just a way of teaching P/E and so the framework. 

00:32:23 Speaker 3 

Now we're sort of evolved into a unit planning framework that can be applied in any subject, and so we're working on. 

00:32:31 Speaker 3 

Pursuing that and sharing those ideas you know in schools and with initial teacher education students, yeah. 

00:32:40 Speaker 3 

Sorry. 

00:32:40 Speaker 2 

And do if I've. I have run very successful dance programmes and if I can do it through creative fee then it must work because it is often the unit I know from talking to my colleagues that it's often the unit. 

00:32:56 Speaker 2 

My colleagues dread to teach. 

00:32:57 Speaker 3 

Yeah, I'm in the Bush dance. 

00:32:59 

Yes. 

00:33:00 Speaker 2 

Yeah. Yeah, just the Bush to Hansen. Great core, yeah. 

00:33:05 Speaker 1 

Oh, look, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today on the actual podcast. 

00:33:11 Speaker 1 

We'll put some links in the the bio underneath the podcast, we can refer to our listeners to some more reading of some of the great stuff that you've done and hopefully that will inspire them. Also on to it, creative learning and teaching approach and how to learn more about your framework. So thank you. 

00:33:32 Speaker 1 

Again. 

00:33:33 Speaker 3 

Thanks hope so. 

00:33:33 Speaker 2 

Thanks, sue.